E20. Stevie Interview

Today, we’re joined by Stevie, Sadie’s former foster mother, to retrace the unlikely beginning of their bond. Stevie reflects on her own struggles with drinking and the choice to get sober, while Sadie shares memories of those years that still carry tenderness and humor.

From there, we turn to family and wanting an apology that never comes. We revisit Sadie’s grandmother, who paid a high price for intervening. 

Sadie also speaks candidly about identity, relationships, and power, including describing her shift toward dating women as a political choice.

Thanks for listening. Feel free to subscribe and share with others. You can also email us at < sadiegreenstory@gmail.com or send a voice message from any particular episode on our website http://SadieStory.Buzzsprout.com

Special Thanks to our supporters, who have made this podcast possible.

• Lucy Mathews Heegaard: Audio Engineer 
  • with music via Epidemic Sound
• Terry Gydesen: Photographer

• Polly Kellogg
• Kate Tillotson
• Dawn Charbonneau
• Jacob Wyatt
• Molly Tillotson
• Clare Dudzinski
• Julian Bowers
• Wendy Horowitz
• Maggie Kazel
• Pat Farrell
• Lynette Tabert
• Laura Jensen
• People's Farm Collective
• Deborah Copperud of "Spock Talk" podcast

Transcript

Setting Up Stevie’s Interview

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Welcome to the Stadie Green story about an older adult looking back on her abusive childhood. It's a conversation between Sadie and myself, Pam Colby, her longtime friend. We are exploring how early trauma can affect a lifetime. Thanks for joining us. Here we are again, Sadie.

SPEAKER_03 0:27

Here we are again.

SPEAKER_00 0:28

Welcome back to our podcast. Today we have a special treat. We're gonna hear from Spady's foster mother, Stevie.

SPEAKER_03 0:37

Yes, because of the significance for me of living with Stevie, I'd love for you to meet her and hear from her directly. Stevie is also one of only two people in my life other than relatives who have met my family. Oh, and I want to explain that I changed names in the podcast and I named the teenager that lived with Stevie and I Lou. But her real name was Barb. And in the interview with Stevie, we of course called her Barb. So the first one I called Lou in episode 19 is now Barb in this interview. Just to keep it from being confusing.

SPEAKER_00 1:21

One thing I want to add is that uh we did this before we even started the podcast. And we were using different mics. I had each Sadie and Stevie mic, and I'm off in a corner, but then I do chime in here and there. Rarely, just a couple times. A small voice in the corner.

SPEAKER_03 1:39

But here's the interview. Thanks for listening.

How Sadie And Stevie Meet

SPEAKER_03 1:51

So I'm here with Stevie, who I met when I was 15, and I lived with Stevie for at least a year.

SPEAKER_02 1:59

Yeah, that's what I remember too. I remember 16. You had to be 16 in order for me to take you.

SPEAKER_03 2:05

I see.

SPEAKER_02 2:06

Because I was single. But I couldn't take someone younger. Oh. In other words, being single at that time. Yeah. That probably changed now.

SPEAKER_03 2:16

So should we tell the story of how we met?

SPEAKER_02 2:19

Okay, I'll go first. What I remember about how we met is I don't remember. But I remember asking for you.

SPEAKER_03 2:30

You were just asking for a teenager, right?

SPEAKER_02 2:33

Yes. Yeah. Oh, that was the other thing. I could only take a girl. Oh, okay. I would never have been able to take a boy at 16.

SPEAKER_03 2:39

I see.

SPEAKER_02 2:39

Because I was a woman. I see. Well, anyway, that was those were the rules of the time. But I remember asking for you, and there you were, you came. And we when I did meet you, we planned to go up to the North Shore. And we went to Fen Stads Resort in the winter. Yes. And they only had one cabin open at the time, and it was way up high on a hill. And we brought Barb along to see how it all would work out.

SPEAKER_03 3:03

That's right, I remember that.

SPEAKER_02 3:05

Yeah. And they told me that you had been abused at your home and that you were in a foster home that wouldn't allow you to work, and you really wanted to have a job and a little more flexible room around you. There really wasn't a lot of information. And I I think I knew that you had been in therapy at the hospital. I think I knew that, but I didn't really know what the abuse was, and it was a long time before you could really open up, and it was piece by piece. And I'm so glad you did.

SPEAKER_03 3:34

That's pretty much how it was.

SPEAKER_02 3:36

Okay, now you tell how we actually met.

SPEAKER_03 3:38

I'm in my high school in Dinky Town, and a message goes over the loudspeaker calling me down to the office. I thought, oh my God, what did I get? You're in trouble. I get to the office, and there's my social worker. And she says, There's somebody across the street that we could go and meet. So I remember you were sitting in a booth smoking of Parliament.

SPEAKER_02 4:04

Do you even remember the brand?

SPEAKER_03 4:05

Well, I mean, once I sat down, and I probably was smoking some at the time too.

SPEAKER_02 4:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 4:11

But that's when you said, let's go to the cabin and see how we get along.

SPEAKER_02 4:14

But that would be a good way to meet, spend the weekend together. And it was, it was a really nice weekend.

SPEAKER_03 4:19

And I have a picture of that weekend.

SPEAKER_02 4:21

Oh, that's at that lake that weekend. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. And you had the coolest hat on that day. And look at the bell bottoms. I know. Oh my god. There you are. Yes. Wow. Oh my goodness. That is a great picture. What I remember about that place was how the ice came up off the lake in sheets, little shales, and they were blue. They were so beautiful. And we crawled around out there on them. That was fun.

SPEAKER_03 4:48

Yeah, that was

Abuse History And Earning Trust

SPEAKER_03 4:49

a great weekend.

SPEAKER_02 4:50

Yeah, it was. And then I was working at the juvenile center at that time. And I was also drinking too much. And I'm not proud of that.

SPEAKER_03 5:01

Oh, but I remember some great times.

SPEAKER_02 5:04

But we but you know, eventually I overcame that and I've been sober for most of my life. But I wish I had been sober then for you.

SPEAKER_03 5:11

I remember driving around at night, going on rides in the car. It was so fun. I loved it. I loved it.

SPEAKER_02 5:19

Well, I was one of those working drunks, so to speak. I could go to work and function and pay my bills and all that stuff, but it was still a problem. And I eventually, I think I did it for about seven years, and then I stopped. And I've remained sober since. I'm glad I can be here for you now.

SPEAKER_03 5:38

I have so many good memories. I don't have any bad memories.

SPEAKER_02 5:42

Oh, that's so sad.

SPEAKER_03 5:43

I really don't.

SPEAKER_02 5:45

Well, you know, overall I think it was okay.

SPEAKER_03 5:48

Remember when we lived on 27? Yes, I do.

SPEAKER_02 5:50

And you had that all the time.

SPEAKER_03 5:52

Yeah. And then I bring these kids home who you knew from the juvenile center.

SPEAKER_02 5:57

You wild thing, you. You had a spirit though that you really wanted something different for yourself. And you weren't going to be going down with this issue of being abused. You were going to fight it and you were going to come out ahead of it. And you did. I'm just amazed at what you were able to accomplish in the hospital.

SPEAKER_03 6:16

I don't know why I got to stay there so long, but it was sure the best thing that ever happened to me. Then I started going to school at Marshall University.

SPEAKER_02 6:24

How was that for you?

SPEAKER_03 6:25

Oh, I loved school.

SPEAKER_02 6:27

How were you treated at school?

SPEAKER_03 6:29

You know, I I don't remember being treated badly by Okay.

SPEAKER_02 6:33

Did you have good friends?

SPEAKER_03 6:34

Well, I hung out with the odd ones. I was kind of a misfit, at least for the first couple years. But yes, I had friends.

SPEAKER_02 6:44

When I met Sadie, it is such a long time ago, I don't remember a lot, but you had crazy hair, and I wasn't used to your hair. And I remember one time you asked me, Do you like my hair? And I said, Well, not really. And that just forever haunted me because that really bothered you at that time. And I want you to know I love your hair. But I was trying to be honest with you at the time, and that wasn't a good answer.

SPEAKER_03 7:12

Because I was so insecure.

SPEAKER_02 7:14

Yeah, maybe you were at that time. Mostly I just remember how happy you were, and I thought, how could she come out of that with such a happy attitude about life? Life was a piece of cake, man. I don't remember why we started talking about it, but you opened up. We were having a conversation. I remember you talking about how your mother had put you under a barrel and let you stay there in the hot sun. I remember thinking, oh my lord, how did you survive all those things? And I think all you ever wanted was for her to say, I'm sorry, and I do love you anyway. And she never did that for you. And I think that's so normal for us to want approval of our parents and love from our parents, no matter what they've done to us. I had my own issues with my father. I wanted him to just think I was the cat's pajamas. My father was drunk all the time and abusive, verbally mostly. All I ever wanted was him to like me and to approve of me. And I really understood that about your family. Even when you wrote your book, you didn't want them to be hurt by what you said. It's that way in families. You want to protect the family you have.

SPEAKER_03 8:27

Yeah, although I know the whole system is set up to keep kids in their families. Yes. And I wish I would have gotten out. I wish my mother would have said, I don't like her, it's not good.

SPEAKER_02 8:42

That she would have initiated that rather than that I would have gotten somewhere else. Yeah, I know you kind of had to do it for yourself by running off into the woods and stuff.

SPEAKER_03 8:51

And my grandmother and your grandmother getting it started.

SPEAKER_02 8:54

But she was something else, wasn't she?

SPEAKER_03 8:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:57

I remember this so well. Sadie took me up to meet her grandma. And we met her first, and she always called me

Alcohol, Safety, And Sober Living

SPEAKER_02 9:06

girly. She was so sweet. She had that happy, upbeat personality like you. And she was blind at the time. And I remember on the wall of her house, she had all these needles up there with threads in them. In a curtain. And she asked us to thread some of the needles and put them in the curtain so that she could sew later because she couldn't see the little hole to thread. She had a wood stove and she would always stoke the stove. That's how she cooked. And so she would ask us to bring in wood. Sometimes we would stack the wood for her. And finally, one day she said, I'm gonna have to go live with my daughter because I can't take care of the stove anymore and cook. She was afraid she would start her house on fire. Your father came up one day and I met him. And then you and I went down the hill and I met your mother. Just as nice as pie. And I thought, oh my, this is so deceptive. I thought to myself, how could all of this happen with this lovely sweet lady? And that's how she presented herself with people. So there was that side to her too. I remember meeting your sister at that time, and she was over at the house. I don't remember a lot about her, but I remember meeting her at that time. She'd never really s acknowledged what happened to you either, did she? She denied it.

SPEAKER_03 10:35

Right. She's really made an effort to reach out to me more than once recently. Well, she's the one that told me about my mother being in the hospital and falling down the stairs.

SPEAKER_01 10:47

Stevie, can you describe Sadie's mother and father a little bit more?

SPEAKER_02 10:51

Well, I remember meeting Sadie's father at his mother's house, and he was very pleasant. He was bringing in wood or bringing up wood to the cabin where she lived. She lived uphill from the farm. It was a good mile, maybe, down or maybe half a mile to the farm.

SPEAKER_03 11:10

Half a mile, maybe.

SPEAKER_02 11:11

And he was very pleasant, smiled, didn't talk a lot, was very nice looking. He had work clothes on. I don't remember a whole lot more than that. But I also remember thinking he was sort of uninvolved with things, and he seemed like distant from everything, kind of just uh on the surface. But that was just a one-sign meeting, really. And her mother, I don't remember a whole lot more about her mother, other than that we sat down at her table, she served me coffee or something, and she was just very pleasant. But I don't know what she actually knew about me or who I was or why I was there. I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_03 11:56

Yeah, I don't remember either.

SPEAKER_02 11:57

I just remember thinking she was just like nothing ever happened to Sadie, according to the surface of her parents.

SPEAKER_03 12:04

And we of course never talked about it.

SPEAKER_02 12:06

No.

SPEAKER_03 12:06

We talked about anything but.

SPEAKER_02 12:08

Anything but, yeah. After meeting your mother, for many times after that, I wanted to go and say something to her and ask her why she did what she did. And I never had the courage enough to do it. And I didn't know if it would be something destructive or productive, you know, so I never did it. But I really wanted to. I wanted to say something to her. And then your dad, he didn't do anything to stop it. That bothered me a lot, too. And I just wanted to find out why and say something. And I wanted them to know how wonderful you are and how much they missed by not having you in their lives. I wish they had known who you really were, what your spirit was like. I forgot to say something about grandma. Can I say it now? Yeah, yeah. I went up there with you that I think it was the second time we took your grandma out and she took us all around the countryside to find the love nest. Yes, I remember that. Her first love nest, where she well, what I remember about your grandma, she told us that she came up to Minnesota in a covered wagon. Yes, from Iowa. Yes, yes, yes, and that uh she ended up living with her husband on the hill. Yeah, and then, well, actually, the first place was the love nest. And it was just this little abandoned house, and we have pictures of it. Yes. And she took us and showed us, and she stood there for a long time looking at it, even though she couldn't see it real well. I think she was having some memories at that point. Do you remember that? Yeah, I do remember that. That was so wonderful. Yep. It was just a little tiny place, and it was all abandoned and not being lived in at the time.

SPEAKER_03 13:48

Falling down. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:50

Yeah. Oh, that was something else. She just lived or she just was in the present moment at that time and seeing Sadie. She was always happy to see her. Your grandma was cut off from the family after she intervened like that. There was a sister born to Sadie's family that grandma didn't meet until she was two years old, and she only lived a little half mile away.

SPEAKER_03 14:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:11

Because the family wouldn't have anything to do with her. I think your dad still went up there though.

SPEAKER_03 14:17

He did.

SPEAKER_02 14:18

That must have been hard for him. Yeah. To have his mother cut off like that. I would think so.

SPEAKER_03 14:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:25

I remember one of the things now that I'm rehashing. I remember that you weren't allowed to have surgeries when you were young.

School, Hair, And Finding Confidence

SPEAKER_02 14:34

And so that was part of the reason why they finally removed you from your home so that you could start having some surgeries. And when you finally came to me, you had already had a couple of surgeries, but there was still more to be done. One of the surgeries that I remember you had had while you were with me was that you had to have bone out of your hip put into your top raise my nose.

SPEAKER_03 14:56

This bone right here. Oh, I love that picture.

SPEAKER_02 14:58

I always wonder what's going to happen to all the pictures after we die. I know. Nobody's going to care. Nobody cares. Oh, my very first love. How could I forget this? The lesbian story. I always had crushes on women. Even when I was two, I had a crush on my mother's cousin's wife, Betty. And then I had a crush on my choir director in fifth grade at church. And it was just one thing after another. It was always crushes on women. I don't remember when I first started dating women. I was still trying to be with men when I was with you and Barb. But I don't remember the first woman I actually dated, the one whose picture we just saw. I remember you were with Richard for quite a while.

SPEAKER_03 15:46

Yeah, we lived on Standish Avenue. I think we were together about four years. Yeah, he was a good guy. He was a good guy.

SPEAKER_02 15:52

So you were definitely identifying as a straight person at that point, even after I was with women. I remember when you first started being interested in women. And I was very surprised because I thought for sure you would end up with Richard. And I don't remember all of the women, but there were two or three at least that you were interested in and you were dating. And I finally asked you, I don't remember when or who you were with when I asked you, but I finally asked you, I said, what happened that you decided that you could be with women? And you told me it was a political choice.

SPEAKER_03 16:28

It was a political choice. For you.

SPEAKER_02 16:30

It made me realize that there were other ways of being involved with women. It wasn't always about being attracted to someone sexually, but that this was a choice you have made based on politics and where you were politically.

SPEAKER_03 16:44

Yeah, the more I understood the power between men and women. I mean, I came to a point where I'm just not going to give anything to men. Until we have the same amount of respect and power, I'm just not going to give anything to men. And so I hung out with lesbians. I honestly believe now that without conditioning, I mean, we're all on a continuum, so we're all on a different place. But in my place, had I not been conditioned, I would meet somebody, gender would be irrelevant.

SPEAKER_02 17:15

It's more of a who fits your spirit. It doesn't matter who they are.

SPEAKER_03 17:20

That's right. That's right. Yeah. Yep. I can see I still feel that way. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:24

And I've seen that in you too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:27

We gotta wrap it up. So let's think about anything we didn't cover.

SPEAKER_03 17:31

I do want to hear more from Stevie. What did you want to hear? Oh, you know how it was living together. I remember that I became a partier and a problem.

SPEAKER_02 17:40

And when we were living together on 27th Avenue, was it? Yes. That house is still there. Yes, it is. You became a partier, and actually, the landlord of where we were living said, I'm getting reports that you are partying too much, and that I needed to do something about it. So it was at that point that I thought, she needs to party. This is what she needs to do right now. You were 17, you were almost 18. It was like the spring of your 17th year. I said, She needs to go on her own and party her heart out. That's she has not been able to do that.

SPEAKER_03 18:16

And that's what I did. So that's what you did. Then you got yourself together. Oh, it took me a while. I had my own apartment. No, let's see. I rented that rooming house first in Dinky Town. And so people would come to my place. In a rooming house? Yes. Oh, did you get in trouble? No, I don't remember getting in trouble. Okay. But I have a lot of pictures from that. Okay. And it was a communal kitchen, and people rented rooms. And it was a lot of college kids. But I had my room and people were coming and going all the time. And then I had that apartment over on East Hennepin.

SPEAKER_02 18:53

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 18:54

Yeah. And that was a real party house. Oof. Yeah. People would come and sleep on the floor and eat.

SPEAKER_02 19:04

Well, I remember after that,

Wanting An Apology From Mom

SPEAKER_02 19:06

you came back to live with me for a while when you were at 3412 East 34th Street.

SPEAKER_03 19:10

Because there was a gang. I lived in Northeast Minneapolis in the house with two fellows who we were just friends. We had a party, and this gang from Northeast came and they deliberately started harassing women, and then this whole fight thing broke out. People went to the hospital, windows were smashed. You came and got me. Oh, yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 19:32

And then you lived in the basement. Your basement. Yeah. There was a whole big area down in the basement that you turned into your little hideaway. Yes, yes. You've always had a hideaway. Yes. Either in the attic or the basement. Yeah. Wherever you lived. Yeah. Anyway, that was your little space. But I remember one of those people broke into my house with me in it and pushed his way through and went to yeah. Yeah. Anyway, he clearly had been beaten up and he just needed to get in, but I was a little nervous about it. So he went in the basement and just stayed there until he got sober. It turned out okay. He really was just looking for sanctuary somewhere. So you stayed there with me for a little while, but it worked out okay.

SPEAKER_03 20:15

Yeah, I I have good memories. Yeah, me too. We lived together pretty well. I remember you taking me to the river, taking me to parks. You really liked being outdoors and around lakes, and I love that.

SPEAKER_02 20:28

Yeah, me too. Yeah, I still do. Yeah. Although I don't do it as much now.

SPEAKER_03 20:33

I know, I want to do it more.

SPEAKER_02 20:34

I remember one thing about you. You would walk miles every day, no matter where you were.

SPEAKER_03 20:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:40

And you're look at good shape you're in because of it. I don't walk like you do.

SPEAKER_03 20:44

But you're active. You've always been active.

SPEAKER_02 20:47

You can't sit still and neither can I. I think that's really about it. I I just love Sadie.

SPEAKER_03 20:52

Oh. And I love Stevie. I don't know what I would have done. I don't know what I would have done without you.

SPEAKER_02 20:59

I remember going to Wisconsin when you were in this one little house and you were writing your book then. I brought you some groceries. You were really determined to write this book. And you really isolated yourself and you got the first draft out.

SPEAKER_03 21:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:15

That was some real soul searching, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_03 21:19

It was painful.

SPEAKER_02 21:20

It was good writing too. It's definitely a little love story here. We just we'll always be connected. Yes, we will. Yeah. Yeah. And now that you're gonna retire, we can play. Yes. You should come over and I'll teach you how to play Rummy Cube. Okay. You'll love it. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 21:37

And learn how to have fun. That's my goal. Learn how to have fun.

SPEAKER_02 21:40

And thank you very much for everything.

SPEAKER_03 21:43

Thank you, Stevie. So thank you for listening to Stevie. And we do want to tell you that we are winding down this podcast. We plan to have two. Or three more episodes just talking about how that early life might have affected me in my adult life. Also talking about our process of doing this podcast. I want to say a little more about grief and about family and about how I've lived in relationships. So do stay tuned for that. If you do have questions, you can email us at sadie greenstory at gmail dot com or leave a voice message from any particular episode on the website. And that website is at Sadiestory dot buzzsprout dot com. Thanks for listening.